Curse

FenrirOfSleipnir · Aug 21, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

I totally agree with you Elistan
They should seperate RPG and PVP, that way rpg characters can enjoy pvp more, and pvp characters can't bother RPG characters all the time.
MMORPGs are to play with others and always are replayable, since every time you play it again, the things go different, the sensation is different, and the people are different.
I don't get why people don't see that.

Before I've started Guild Wars, I've been playing Ragnarok Online for about 5 years (yea, that long) everytime I had to re-make my character because of wipes and what not, I didn't mind. It's just a fresh start. A new experience.

(what's UAS?)

Endowed Johnson · Aug 21, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Simply put, if they start zealously swinging the nerf bat, people leave the game. Fewer people, less challenge and less reason to stay. Right now people are leaving in droves because they have already done everything and tired of waiting for something new. They are off playing any number of games which are currently in competition and say they will come back for an expansion. Typical of this, many will wait for 'reviews' from their guildmates. The mere mention of the word 'nerf' will mostly serve to keep them gone and encourage more to go to freshly un-nerfed games. Nerfing tends to kill a game, period. This game was so long in development, hard to believe most things not ornamental aren't working as intended, including spirit walls that allow their own team to pass right thru but not opponents.

Theos · Aug 21, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endowed Johnson

Simply put, if they start zealously swinging the nerf bat, people leave the game. Fewer people, less challenge and less reason to stay. Right now people are leaving in droves because they have already done everything and tired of waiting for something new. They are off playing any number of games which are currently in competition and say they will come back for an expansion. Typical of this, many will wait for 'reviews' from their guildmates. The mere mention of the word 'nerf' will mostly serve to keep them gone and encourage more to go to freshly un-nerfed games. Nerfing tends to kill a game, period. This game was so long in development, hard to believe most things not ornamental aren't working as intended, including spirit walls that allow their own team to pass right thru but not opponents.

I want to see these hoardes of people that are leaving, from what I have seen the number of GW players is anything but dropping. (maybe my source is wrong)

If the only reason you are in a game is for items and to be god, and you have some odd fear of the nerf bat because you are unable to evolve... then you have some issues.

PS: What was the point of beating on the game? Of saying how much it sucked... how it lacks in comparison to other games. Do you have some immense hate for this game? Or are you just scared your gold mine might run dry?

ElderAtronach · Aug 21, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Anyone with the forum handle "Endowed Johnson" should not be taken seriously.

Red Locust · Aug 21, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

There are plenty of strategic options for dealing with energy denial, from running your own energy management to counteract it to increasing your intrinsic energy efficiency, or getting proactive with initial energy outlays.

And energy drain overpowers most of those. Which is why you'll find most monks running energy drain as their elite, unless there's some other elite that's essential to the build (and even then, it's most likely gonna be run on a /mo secondary). Let's see, you can choose some other form of energy management, or you can choose e-drain which is excellent energy management and also ruins the enemy's energy management. When the attack brutally out-performs the counter, then it's not much of a counter now, is it?

Quote:

I put forth the notion that any buff that *has* to be removed if you are to emerge victorious is inherently unbalanced. Pointing at enchantment removal options does absolutely nothing to undermine this argument

Like I mentioned previously, there are ways to circumvent the prot bond. High-frequency low damage attacks, energy denial and target switching will do it. Admittedly at reduced efficiency, but that's what you have to work with if you don't have enchantment removal at your disposal. And that's a big "if," since right now NR runs wild, and if it weren't for NR, it'd be rend or lingering curse.
And really, prot bond isn't the only skill that only has one efficient way of countering it. There are several powerful hexes whose only reliable counter is hex removal. Even mass DoT conditions ala poison/disease will win the energy battle and eventually the game unless the enemy is carrying martyr. You can hit close to 160DPS with those, and nothing short of martyr is going to save you. None of these are quite as powerful as prot bond, but they are game winners nonetheless, if you don't have the proper counter.

What exactly is the problem with certain buffs needing to be removed? Enchantment removal counters a huge chunk of those 450 total skills, and every build will have enchant removal. Perhaps you didn't envision the game having only one type of counter for one skill, but that isn't grounds for calling it "broken," certainly not with such an authoritative tone.

Quote:

(about pve):
1) If there are enchantments that automatically beat encounters, regardless of difficulty, if they are not removed, and
2) You desire to have a reasonably balanced PvE environment, then either
3a) Every single encounter has to involve enchantment removal to prevent degenerate farming strategies, or
3b) Unbalanced autowin enchantments need to be nerfed.

You're right, who cares about gross imbalances in the game? If you actually care about becoming rich in this game go and make the retarded character just like everyone else who cares about being rich. 30 profession combinations, 450 skills, diverse characters and strategies - who cares about any of that? Wanting things to be balanced so diversity can thrive is for scrubs. No, the future of this game is ten thousand Monk/Warriors streaming into the Underworld one at a time, never talking to anyone else, and anyone who seems to think that there's something wrong with this is just a whiner who needs to mind his own business. Isn't it obvious?

If this is an argument for nerfing prot bond in PvE, it's a weak one.

What you're suggesting is nerfing solo monks so as to encourage team play? Let's see, most of the times when I'd want to do a mission, I'd join up with friends/guildies with a normal pve build (since 105 monks don't work in team games). I'd never want to join PuGs. If no friends/guildies are online, I'd just grab my solo monk and farm exp, and I'm sure a lot of people are in the same situation. I don't tell a friend, "go screw yourself, I'd rather farm with my monk."

Nerfing prot bond won't encourage me to PuG more, it'd just piss me off because I'd have to grind that much more for the last few skill points I need. I'd just log off and log back on when more people I know are online. Now maybe if you're sitting in ToA all day and yelling "LFG LFG LFG", nerfing prot bond might help you get a group more easily, but in most cases it wouldn't help a bit. There will always be enough people going through pve with a new char, willing to partner up and do a mission.

A better, more thought out suggestion to improve PvE would have been to increase mission/quest rewards and encourage questing, as opposed to nerfing farming and forcing a few pissed-off farmers into questing with the rest of the crowd.

Endowed Johnson · Aug 21, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Anyone with the forum handle "Endowed Johnson" should not be taken seriously.

Ad Hominum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

I want to see these hoardes of people that are leaving, from what I have seen the number of GW players is anything but dropping. (maybe my source is wrong)

If the only reason you are in a game is for items and to be god, and you have some odd fear of the nerf bat because you are unable to evolve... then you have some issues.

PS: What was the point of beating on the game? Of saying how much it sucked... how it lacks in comparison to other games. Do you have some immense hate for this game? Or are you just scared your gold mine might run dry?

Ad Nauseumque infinitum
P.S.Non Sequitur

Logically bereft and impoverished attacks. Your weapons are not to blame, perhaps it is your intelligence attribute that does not meet the requirements to properly wield. Re-spec.

Asplode · Aug 21, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

I can't do 105 or 55 since everyone needs my monk for oh, y'know, real monking and helping out.

A couple of my friends have 55/105 monks, and when people need a mission they're like "Uhhh...are there mesmers in it?" YES THERE ARE MESMERS IN IT... "Uhh..."

So they go in, they can't heal any of us, of course, but heck they can tank everything but the mesmers (and necros, sometimes). Oh they can't tank anything with knockdown, either, or DOT, poison, disease, bleeding. Otherwise, they die. Really fast, and get DP, and bug, and you can't res them, because their hp is 1.

So, then what? You gimped your monk to the point where you can no longer be useful, but hell you got ectoplasms up the hizass. Want a f*cking cookie?

-edit-

Oh, oh right one more note: If PvE in GW is supposed to reflect trends in PvP, god damnit we need nature's renewal spam in UW, but this has been said and repeated so many times it's deader than dead.

See anyone running Prot bond in HoH? I don't bloody think so.

KamikazeChicken · Aug 21, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

Oh, oh right one more note: If PvE in GW is supposed to reflect trends in PvP, god damnit we need nature's renewal spam in UW, but this has been said and repeated so many times it's deader than dead.

There is Nature's Renewal in UW. >.> Why else do you think monks are limited to the small area of smites.

Sainte · Aug 21, 2005, 09:01 PM // 21:01

As people have stated, I solo only when we dont have enough people to GvG or do UW clearing runs. I never PUG, not for Missions, Runs, Arena or HoH, because I KNOW that 9/10 times with a pug, some moron will screw it up and cost use time and money, if its UW/FoW.

Last 4 groups I went in to go to FoW/UW claimed they were "pro" at this, yet they managed to die before even finishing a single quest. I do better on my monk solo, says something about people playing.

Keure · Aug 21, 2005, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endowed Johnson

Simply put, if they start zealously swinging the nerf bat, people leave the game.

Those looking for a good competitive game can only look at a balanced playing environment favorably.

Also remember that unlike some MMORPGs people don't exactly pour their lives away on a character with a limited skillset in Guild Wars. A skill nerfed to uselessness leaves most people saying "Alright, don't want to use that one anymore - but this other skill can do well on the skillbar" rather than "I invested a few thousand hours into this character with this broken skill that got nerfed, this character is not worth playing anymore". The latter makes people leave, the former...doesn't, really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endowed Johnson

The mere mention of the word 'nerf' will mostly serve to keep them gone and encourage more to go to freshly un-nerfed games. Nerfing tends to kill a game, period.

This is simply untrue. You must be getting your premises from experiences with other online games (MMORPGs) where there are certain attributes to characters made in those games (see above reasoning).

omegabyr · Aug 21, 2005, 09:21 PM // 21:21

i was way to lazy to read through all 120+ posts here so im just gona post my opinion, the 105/55 monk is fair, unless used in the low lvl arenas, the monks are so heavily relied on thats its a way for them to not be relied on at all, they can go out and do whatever with little fear of dying because the monk was overworked.

ManaCraft · Aug 21, 2005, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Nerfing prot bond won't encourage me to PuG more, it'd just piss me off because I'd have to grind that much more for the last few skill points I need. I'd just log off and log back on when more people I know are online.

So? The purpose of fixing prot bond is not to make you PUG more often. I don't care whether you PUG or not, I care whether you are met with sufficient challenge when you play the game.

"PUGs suck" is a poor excuse for wanting to preserve an imbalanced skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

A better, more thought out suggestion to improve PvE would have been to increase mission/quest rewards and encourage questing, as opposed to nerfing farming and forcing a few pissed-off farmers into questing with the rest of the crowd.

Agreed, but the reason people advocate a fix for prot bond isn't because it's being used as a farming tool, but because it removes all difficulty from the game. As far as I'm concerned you can farm all you want.

And yes, the quality of drops needs to go up, up, up!

ManaCraft

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 21, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endowed Johnson

Simply put, if they start zealously swinging the nerf bat, people leave the game. Fewer people, less challenge and less reason to stay. Right now people are leaving in droves because they have already done everything and tired of waiting for something new. They are off playing any number of games which are currently in competition and say they will come back for an expansion. Typical of this, many will wait for 'reviews' from their guildmates. The mere mention of the word 'nerf' will mostly serve to keep them gone and encourage more to go to freshly un-nerfed games. Nerfing tends to kill a game, period. This game was so long in development, hard to believe most things not ornamental aren't working as intended, including spirit walls that allow their own team to pass right thru but not opponents.

Get on topic, the conversation is STILL not about pvp and spirit spam. The conversation is about the fact that monks are unbalanced, and currently being exploited. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by red locust

Nerfing prot bond won't encourage me to PuG more, it'd just piss me off because I'd have to grind that much more for the last few skill points I need. I'd just log off and log back on when more people I know are online.

Why do you think I care if you pug or not? It has nothing at all to do with who you group or don't group with. The fact that you cant handle dealing with other players is no reason to leave a broken, flawed, unbalanced and exploited skill buggered as it currently is. And really, please dont cry about so called "grind" in this game. It only shows that you don't know what actual grind is.

Mourning Air · Aug 21, 2005, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinrisen

Point is, if the 55/105 build is so evil and an "exploit", why the heck would Anet wait this long?

Because it's not an exploit at all, of course... it's simply a very creative build with a number of things (including, but not limited to, protective bond) all working together in tandem, highly effective in certain limited areas of the game - and virtually useless in most others.

Unfortunately, when such builds turn up in online games, which could - gasp! - allow that player to gain some fake wealth faster than others, people will scream about it until it is changed.

If this build is changed, smart players will come up with a variation of it that still works (perhaps not in UW, but in probably every other area that the current one works) and people will still complain - or they'll complain about the warrior one - or the ele - or so on.

All avoiding the actual problem, which is that there should be better rewards when playing in a full group, and there should be a better system of putting together groups at outposts.

Even when people can't solo the UW, they always try to come up with ways to do it with as few people as possible - that's why you have things like trapping groups. Trapping groups take longer, but are more worthwhile in terms of rewards. Soloing also takes longer and can be mind-numbingly boring, yet so many still do it.

Enough with the nerf talk - let's make it more worthwhile to group, and then you will have a lot less people who want to solo. But again... this point is continually missed in these "discussions" (which come off more like senseless hatred of people using a certain build).

Quintus · Aug 21, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

So? The purpose of fixing prot bond is not to make you PUG more often. I don't care whether you PUG or not, I care whether you are met with sufficient challenge when you play the game.

Why? Why do you care that I get sufficient challenge when I play? How does it affect you? If I want to remove all of the challenge from the game for myself (and nobody else), why shouldn't I be allowed to? I can understand an arguement against the 105/55 build based its affect on the economy, but this arguement seems ridiculous to me.

Sainte · Aug 21, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quintus

Why? Why do you care that I get sufficient challenge when I play? How does it affect you? If I want to remove all of the challenge from the game for myself (and nobody else), why shouldn't I be allowed to? I can understand an arguement against the 105/55 build based its affect on the economy, but this arguement seems ridiculous to me.

What economy?

Quintus · Aug 21, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sainte

What economy?

Good point.

coleslawdressin · Aug 21, 2005, 10:57 PM // 22:57

exploited? that is BS

the freaking aataxe must have like level 20 sword skill and arent they like level 28/29 monsters? they hit me for like 200-250 dmg with no spells on.. omfg hax the monsters can be over level 20.. anet nerf them please or i will cry boohohohooohoohoo

can you imagine if anet nerfed the 105ers how many will flood the forums complaining? anet coded prot bond to be 1 mana so it was an intended feature. they will not nerf it so get over it.

if you think farming the uw is the best place in the game to farm, you suck at farming

i run a build with my mo/me using no healing or protection spells that solos griffons just as fast as a w/mo and can kill the warrior and monk bosses every time. i take more than 2 damage but i almost never die.. so can you call that an invincimonk too? lets just nerf every damn monk spell and reduce warrior armor to 60AL so nobody can solo anywhere. make every ranger monster past yaks bend drop a nr first thing so we are prepared for high end pvp and 1/3 of all spells are rendered useless.

they claim that in the coming soon update there will be new opportunities to get loot faster. 8x gold drops for 8 ppl groups sounds like one good idea to encourage grouping. 150gp piles split 8 ways at the very end of the game is just crappy.

for all that you people whine, you don't offer any suggestions to improve things

remove the skill? umm

how would you change prot bond and still have it be a useful skill? if we nerf nr how should healing seed be changed? its like you broke your foot but you wont do anything to fix it, just lay on the ground crying. im sure any anet employee wouldnt even open up this thread with your stupid title.. just continue to blow hot air nobody cares

if this was my forum, i would make a rants section and ban complainers. gtfo of my community section

Sainte · Aug 21, 2005, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

exploited? that is BS

the freaking aataxe must have like level 20 sword skill and arent they like level 28/29 monsters? they hit me for like 200-250 dmg with no spells on.. omfg hax the monsters can be over level 20.. anet nerf them please or i will cry boohohohooohoohoo

can you imagine if anet nerfed the 105ers how many will flood the forums complaining? anet coded prot bond to be 1 mana so it was an intended feature. they will not nerf it so get over it.

if you think farming the uw is the best place in the game to farm, you suck at farming

i run a build with my mo/me using no healing or protection spells that solos griffons just as fast as a w/mo and can kill the warrior and monk bosses every time. i take more than 2 damage but i almost never die.. so can you call that an invincimonk too? lets just nerf every damn monk spell and reduce warrior armor to 60AL so nobody can solo anywhere. make every ranger monster past yaks bend drop a nr first thing so we are prepared for high end pvp and 1/3 of all spells are rendered useless.

they claim that in the coming soon update there will be new opportunities to get loot faster. 8x gold drops for 8 ppl groups sounds like one good idea to encourage grouping. 150gp piles split 8 ways at the very end of the game is just crappy.

for all that you people whine, you don't offer any suggestions to improve things

remove the skill? umm

how would you change prot bond and still have it be a useful skill? if we nerf nr how should healing seed be changed? its like you broke your foot but you wont do anything to fix it, just lay on the ground crying. im sure any anet employee wouldnt even open up this thread with your stupid title.. just continue to blow hot air nobody cares

if this was my forum, i would make a rants section and ban complainers. gtfo of my community section

Kinda sad, I can make more money clearing the FIRST ROOM of cows and squids, than I can by clearing 80% of UW. Wow.. I get piles of 100 gold split 8 ways, whoop-de-doo, im rich now!

Item drops for groups should be like 10-15x time shigher then, to actually encourage "teamwork in a game based on it". Personally, anywhere except HoH/GvG I prefer to go solo >.>

octaviancmb · Aug 21, 2005, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourning Air

All avoiding the actual problem, which is that there should be better rewards when playing in a full group, and there should be a better system of putting together groups at outposts.

Even when people can't solo the UW, they always try to come up with ways to do it with as few people as possible - that's why you have things like trapping groups. Trapping groups take longer, but are more worthwhile in terms of rewards. Soloing also takes longer and can be mind-numbingly boring, yet so many still do it.

Enough with the nerf talk - let's make it more worthwhile to group, and then you will have a lot less people who want to solo. But again... this point is continually missed in these "discussions" (which come off more like senseless hatred of people using a certain build).

Quoted for truth.

The most pressing issue of PvE GW is the issue of group drop rates. ANET really, really needs to come up with a system that *rewards* grouping rather than *punishes* it. Until a more equitable system is in place, I (and any players like me) will continue to find the quickest road to maximum profits. And the grouping reward had better be enough to force me to endure standing around the ToA forever waiting to finish up a PUG.

Seriously, if you're still grouping for anything but quest xp in FoW or UW, then I feel sorry for you.

Please ANET, give me a reason to group with human beings.

cmb